Let me take you back....back...to that fun little diddy we did in class called The Last Word. Remember it?
We didn't have a chance to do a post-mortem on that, I can't remember why, but I never really got a chance to hear what you all gained from that experience.
I am not sure if you remember the reading--I hope you do and if not, I hope you have it because you may have to refresh yourselves on the context in order to answer this blog.
First things first, what did you think of the piece? It was called The Dark Side (It was, right?--Sometimes I use another one called In Praise of the Bad Guy)
Sidebar: As you know, I love love love Robert Greene and if any of you are interested, I have all ofhis books including the one referenced in the article, The Art of Seduction.
After reading the books, I sort of stumbled upon his blog (which is where The Dark Side the originated) called Power, Seduction and War.
What you read the day of The Last Word exercise was an older post that I read a couple years back and STILL has me musing over the contents all this time later.
I posit that the theme of this post is that we are drawn to what we perceive is the dark side of human nature, and presumably, the dark side of ourselves. He cites certain examples of classic "villains" both real and fictional and in those we are not talking about ritualistic serial killers or people who harm animals or children per se. From virtually every standpoint, that type of "dark side" is reviled, as of course it should be.
However, there exists, in all of us, an unmistakable desire to do "the wrong" thing (his assertion), and the more we call those people who act on that desire out on it, the stronger the pull is either to the person or to the act. In his exact words: "The strength of their denunciation equals the strength of their attraction."
He goes on to say, in what may be the most controversial opinion in the entire piece, that we are drawn to certain villainous characters such as the pimp, the seducer, the hustler etc because they are more GENUINE than we are. They recognize their dark side and rather than try to hide it or deny it completely, they act on it.
After reading it and taken what I've said here into consideration, do you agree with Greene or disagree? Also to be considered of course is: Do you have a dark side?
Naturally, you must support what you are saying with thoughtful and relevant examples.(450 words/65pts)
The only books that I have read multiple times have been written by Robert Greene. In my personal library at home, Robert Greene isn’t in the non-fiction section; he’s in the reference section. Perhaps it is because I am already a fan of Greene, but I would absolutely agree with his ideas and statements in The Dark Side.
ReplyDeleteAs humans, we have a natural instinct to explore. After all, exploring the environment around us had evolutionary value. I believe that it was adaption that gave birth to curiosity. In modern day society, we are constantly surrounded with things we want to do. Our curious minds can’t keep up with the changing times. Some things we want to explore are deleterious. People naturally want to explore things like drugs and alcohol. Our instincts haven’t evolved as fast as our social ethics. When we are barred from doing something, it’s allure because that much more powerful; this is our evolutionary instincts kicking in.
Human life is a constant struggle between immediate satisfaction and moral righteousness. Sigmund Freud called these elements the id and the superego. The id is the part of our unconscious seeking immediate gratification regardless of long-term consequences. Our superego is the morality centered part of our unconscious. These two parts are in a constant struggle, resulting in both our lust and disgust for “dark” things.
We are drawn to “dark” individuals, because they live the life we wish we sometimes could. Pimps, hustlers, celebrities, and seducers all gain our envy from their ability to live a life of perpetual darkness. We envy their ability to let their id have total control of their minds. Most of us have to live in the crossfire between satisfaction and righteousness; the villains don’t.
Whenever I think of the genuine nature of villains, I always think of The Joker. Actually two Jokers, the one from Batman and the one from Watchmen. Both see the world for what it is, a place saturated in vice, and no matter what they do, good or evil, they will never change that fact. Personally, I think people who have a dark side ARE in fact more genuine. They do not battle between the good and bad, they just acknowledge both. A person with a dark side is being honest with themselves.
However, a good person, which I define as one who effectively blocks the wants of their unmoral unconscious, is better. One who can ignore the darkness is not only stronger but morally superior to the villains, even though I see them as less genuine.
A have a dark side. A spoiler and warning to anyone interested in reading Robert Greene’s books, they will forever change the way you view the world. It sounds like a hyperbole, but I’m being honest. Essentially, the book teaches you to see the dark nature behind human interaction (even if it’s accidental). Greene is a social genuis, and although I don’t put his techniques to use, they are forever imprinted in my mind, wanting for their chance to play.
George, I've noticed your attraction to Greene's books. It seems like you're quite the aficionado when it comes to Greene and his manipulative ways. Is this foreshadowing? Maybe. But I guess you're also interested in he ways people can be manipulated, because it reveals so much about people themselves. And I can't let that reference to Watchmen go unnoticed.
DeleteGeorge, nice Watchmen refernece. Besides that I genuinely enjoyed what you said (specifically that fifth paragraph)"They do not battle between good or bad, they just acknowledge both". I find a great deal of truth in this statement. I think that if we can learn to accept our dark side we will see the world with reason and clarity.
DeleteRighteousness seems to be a fleeting memory in these modern times, filled with punks, sleazebags, and intentionally immoral human beings. The more laws and regulations and ethical codes that are broken, the better is the way they see things. Without the rules, or should I say enforcement of the rules, these people are free to do as they wish (which is God-knows-what), and destroy order for those that try to preserve society. Robert Greene suggests that these people are actually secretly idols for all people, just because it is human nature, but I disagree. I find nothing positive in using people and committing acts of destruction and malice.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can see, there are two kinds of villains: those that do evil on their own accord and those that have no control whatsoever. The first is more sinister probably more prominent than the latter. There are people that TRY to take advantage of people or TRY to become a criminal, sometimes for bragging rights to their ‘friends’, sometimes for self-satisfaction, sometimes for the pleasure knowing they’ve done someone wrong. Whatever the reason, it is ugly and revolting knowing that people like that exist throughout the whole world, contaminating it with their filthy actions, making other people’s lives worse.
The second of these villains, the ones without self-control, are usually intoxicated or high, which inhibit their neurological transmissions and cause them to do things they wouldn’t normally do. This is what frequently causes rape, abuse, and murder, and they are always guilty as charged, no matter how morally sound they are when not intoxicated. When drugs are in someone’s system, their mind works in ways that are abnormal, not unfiltered. Most normal people do not want to do unspeakable acts on other people, and alcohol and other drugs rewire their brain to do it anyway. I, for example, have promised myself to never drink alcohol for fear of what my brain may do while the alcohol takes over. I have decided that alcohol is too much of a risk to be worth any kind of interaction with it, even one or two drinks, because of the off-chance that I may slip up and become uncontrollable.
Of course, I’ve never been drunk or anything, so no worries about that. However, what would my ‘dark side’ be?
Sometimes, usually when talking to or around my parents, I look at my actions and see that I am subconsciously trying to hide some part of me, and I think that may be ‘dark Tom’ trying to fulfill his evil scheme of shrouding himself. I haven’t noticed myself doing this at any other times in my life, which I find weird.
I do not, however, idolize the villains that intentionally betray those around them. I actually look down on them. They may be more successful than me—in terms of money, fame, women, and happiness—but they do not have the thing that I value most: morality for the populace.
Tom, if no one is idolizing the rogues of society, then why are there new “punks, sleazebags, and intentionally immoral human beings” every generation? Surely if these people were hated, their positions in society would become vacant. Also, do you really give people who are under the influence total immunity for their actions? Being drunk doesn’t totally transform one’s personality. But i’m glad you look down on these people :)
DeleteI remember doing the activity on The Dark Side, but I was so immersed into the activity, that the text didn’t really stand out to me, so I had to go back and reread it. After reading it about 3 times, my opinion change drastically. The first time I read it I scoffed. I couldn’t imagine EVERYONE having a dark side. The second time, I found my opinion wavering. The connotation of dark had thrown me off at first. By dark, I was assuming a heinous, baleful individual. But the third time around, my original strong conviction evaporated into mere particles, and I found myself in 100% agreement with Mr. Greene.
ReplyDeleteWhen I went out to dinner yesterday, I contemplated individuals’ dark sides. As mentioned before, the word ‘dark’ kind of threw me off. But after examining my waitress’s actions, I realized that dark doesn’t just encompass evil acts, but it also covers small tasks that one would never notice as a glimpse into a darker being. The waitress I had tonight was extremely bubbly, and garrulous, an all around joyful one. But on a trip to the bathroom, the bubbly, polite attitude had completely transformed into a hormonal agitated beast. I mean, sure, it’s her job to be nice and polite, but in the instant that she wasn’t around the people she was serving, she had completely transformed. From that point on, I began noticing that her coworkers didn’t really interact with her, but rather, there was a fake sense of friendliness conveyed when they came into contact with her.
As humans, we convey the socially acceptable, nice, genuine individual. The one that will be able to interact and make companions, because it is nature to want to be liked by individuals. For everyone, I think there is the True Self and the Fake Self. The person we act like in school is probably completely different from the person we act like at home. We have different personalities for different occasions, and usually we put on the good act.
We all know that there is “a constant battle between good and evil,” and the same holds true for the individual. We want to choose the good side, and often times we do, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t an evil side lurking. As humans we make a choice: good or evil. But by making that choice, we don’t erase the darker characteristics we are born with. We just choose not to reveal them.
As a result, I think that individuals who tap into their darker side, or at least acknowledge that it exists are better off. A lot of people try to suppress their bad traits, but I think it’s something that we should embrace. It’s okay to have unfriendly thoughts about another being, just as long as you don’t act on those thoughts, then everything is a-okay. I’ll admit that I definitely have a dark side. She comes out when I’m extremely stressed, pissed, annoyed, or anxious. None of you have yet to see her but I assure you she exists. My parents and sisters have had the honor of experiencing this Nyamekye, and she’s not a fun time. But, sometimes, she needs to come out; otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to get my point across.
I’ll admit that I’m drawn to “darker” individuals. I like the bad boys. I like the individuals who pledge full anarchy. And the reason I’m so drawn to it, is because of the darker nature within. I’m a rule-follower; I’m sure most of you know that by now. And I don’t like to take risks. I’m frightened by the tiniest things. But individuals who are the exact opposite of me, who go out partying and don’t give a crap about what others think of them are extremely appealing to me. They are able to embrace their dark side, and let it shine without fear of others' judgments.
So, in short, I think Robert Greene had it completely right, when he asserted that every human has a dark side. It’s a part of who we are, and something we should embrace.
Nyamekye, LOL at “hormonal agitated beast”, that is genius! I too misunderstood the definition of “dark” at first. This response was very funny and genuine and I enjoyed it very much.
DeleteI hate Robert Greene. I hate him with every moral fiber of my character. After reading the Dark Side in class, I was intrigued. So I researched some of Greene’s works, and attempted to read the Art of Seduction, but due to an inexplicably intense anger that arose within me, I literally couldn’t continue. As I read Greene’s words, I became exponentially irritated. This is a man who lives by philosophies such as “court attention at all costs”, “conceal your intentions”, “use selective honesty and selective generosity to disarm”, and “always behave like others.” Maybe the reason these so-called laws disgust me is due in part to the way Greene attempts to apply them to even the most intimate facets of life: relationships, friendships, and self-worth. Maybe Greene’s words would contain some truth in a society stripped of all of these components, in an oversimplified, entirely desensitized society where people are devoid of all humane passions. In such a world, we would know no feelings but the feeling of wanting and the feeling of getting. The feeling of self-interest. With no regard for sincerity or moral consequences, we could constantly manipulate and deceive.
ReplyDeleteBut here’s the problem: humans aren’t soulless robots. We are complex creatures with these pesky little things called emotions and morals. We are defined by our true selves and our true actions, not by the masks we wear. Thus, at least in this society, Greene’s laws are irrelevant.
I will agree to a certain extent with what Greene states in the Dark Side: we do all have a dark side. But it shouldn't be embraced like his rules and laws suggest. It should be fought. Constantly and relentlessly. We instinctively hide our dark sides, for the most part, because they are our greatest source of humiliation. No one wants to be the selfish daughter or the jealous boyfriend or the brooding and irritable friend. We hide these aspects of ourselves in hopes that they will shrivel up and crawl out of our souls. Although there is no more shame in having a dark side than there is in being human, there is great shame in allowing that dark side total control over oneself.
Maybe we find some appeal in a person who has given up that fight for righteousness, but only superficially. We’re jealous of their apathy, their ability to disregard life’s consequences, their skill in remaining unencumbered by moral compasses. But as deeply as we may covet those personas, we know too well their pitfalls: guilt, self-hatred, and, with enough persistence, loss of humanity.
Nothing will be gained in life by strategically and dispassionately controlling the people around you, at least nothing worth gaining. One who uses kindness as merely a tool of manipulation will never know true friendship. One who relies more heavily on deception than on honesty and trust will never know true love. And one who denies his true self in order to blend in with others, thus “getting ahead”, will never know himself.
For some reason i really enjoy that you dislike Greene so much. And based on the way you phrased his ideals from his other works i feel like id dislike him too. But i can see the advantages to having manipulative qualities.
DeleteI agree with Robert Greene. I think this guy is a genius. After reading the article I was thinking of how much I didn’t like reading it because of how it made me feel, which was somewhat resistant. But then that just proved his point, that deep down inside I wanted to know what he has to say. What I experienced relates to the increase in sales of The Art of Seduction from the ALLURE article.
ReplyDeleteOne example I can think of that agrees with his philosophy is the whole “cool kid” act of teenagers in high school. The whole reason drugs and alcohol are “cool” is because they are largely denounced. I don’t know if I agree with the fact that we’re attracted to the villains because they are more genuine than us. He could be right but I’m no expert on this. I think that, in the end, it’s better for us to keep our positive traits on the outside and our negative traits on the inside. Just like the paradox that Greene mentions, we are attracted to this dark side in people even though we don’t want to be.
I know that I have a dark side; I just haven’t done enough introspection to determine how big it is. I’m really hoping that the brighter side of me dominates the darker inside of me. While I have been told that I’m a nice person or a good person or whatever, I have also been known to be passive aggressive. Greene said that by analyzing the clothes one wears or the music one listens to, one can begin to see the inside of someone. Well that statement holds true with me because I listen to music about rebellion and standing up to authority. You all know I’m not one to argue with teachers, and I’m not one to talk back to my parents. I’m not saying these are the types of rebellion I truly desire, but something to break the continuity of conforming to rules and authority figures would be nice.
As much as I like what Robert Greene has to say, I still have my moral values. As much as the methods work in The Art of Seduction, people have landed in successful life-time relationships for centuries. Obviously the divorce rate is ever-increasing in our modern society, where people choose who they want to marry, but what I’m trying to say is that you can find happiness without knowing all of this. I know most people in this class probably disagree with the aphorism “ignorance is bliss,” but in this case I’m not really sure whether or not knowing this information will improve the quality of life. I’ll have to talk to more people who have read The Art of Seduction and ask whether or not their lives were improved from Greene’s methods.
Dan, you are perfectly right when you say “ignorance is bliss”. Like Rachel, you said hated Greene because of the evil things he was proposing. However, exactly like you said, the more you listen to the things he’s saying and pay attention, the more you begin to realize he’s right. You can live life without ever reading any of Greene’s works, thinking everything is “chance”. Or you can really analyze what he is saying and see the workings of how human interaction works. Personally, reading Robert Greene’s books have improved my life, but they’ve also stolen the magic and chance I used to see in life. Perhaps you find the ignorance pleasing. In that case, don’t read his stuff.
DeleteI can understand not liking the article at first. Sometimes other perspectives are hard to understand. I still have trouble understanding Greene's perspective, as shown by my blog response. But I guess it makes some sort of sense. Just not the way I imagine he wanted it to. I just see that everyone can have a dark side, but I don't see how they can really be that bad.
DeleteI thoroughly liked wht you said in your last paragraph pertaining to relationships. I think it is great that there are people that don't need these ridiculous tips to seduce people. I would say that if people spent more time pondering a legitimate relationsgip with real intentions and feelings, then the world would be a much happier place. Possibly less of a divorce rate too.
DeleteRachel:
ReplyDeleteWell, I wasn't expecting that. I didn't know you felt so passionately about the subject. We came to agreement in that we both believe that Greene is correct when it comes to darker sides. I really enjoyed your introduction. I haven't read the Art of Seduction, but now I think I will.
George:
ReplyDelete"One who can ignore the darkness is not only stronger but morally superior to the villains." I love the contrast that you bring up about villains being more genuine, but those ignoring darkness being morally superior. I definitely agree with the fact that if you're able to overcome temptations then you have more will-power, more self-control. However, those individuals who tap into their darkness are able to acknowledge that it exists.
Dan:
I don't think it would improve the quality of life if people were aware of Greene's work. I actually think that some people should continue to live their lives, without knowing any of Greene's findings because it would completely change the dynamic of how they live their lives.I forgot to mention Greene's quotation about music and the way people dress and how that could be a glimpse into their darker side. I can admit that my music is a little out there. And though people think I listen to Big Time Rush all the time, some of the music I enjoy is extremely inappropriate, and rebellious.
So I don't really remember the blog, after this long I didn't expect it to come up again. However, I can go off of the points Bunj made here. I don't think I agree that every person has this "desire to do the wrong". I think it is more of a tendency instead of a desire. But I am getting ahead of myself here. It all really depends on one's definition of "wrong", which is different for everyone. EXAMPLE: Person one believes wrong is cheating on a test, while person two thinks its for the greater good. See, if person two didn't cheat on their math test then they would get a bad grade in the class, then that will bring down their GPA, which wouldn't get them in a good college, and so on and so on. For person two, cheating on that math test will only better their lives and harm no one. But person one really believes this is morally wrong. I know, dumb example, but I'm sure you get my point. Everyone has a different point of view. Once recognizing that, again, I don't think people have a desire to do the wrong thing. It's more of a tendency. And this tendency is definatly affected by their environment, or the "pull" or "attraction". I do think the stronger the pull of "wrong" on someone the more likely they will act on that tendency. I really find his "most controversial" opinion to be very intersting though. Perhaps we were drawn to these ostentacious characters. It's the glam that attracts us though. All the attention, even if it is negative, that these characters get is what in fact may be preceived as desirable. This is because everyone, at some point in another I don't care what you say, desires attention. So I guess there is no way in truly finding out if these characters are genuine are not. You don't know if they are simply acting in this role for that desirable attention, or they are embracing who they really are. If they even know who they are. Think about it. People, pimps, hookers, hustlers, do they see their work as bad? Do they see their work as wrong? As a dark side? I don't know that they do. I don't know that they think to themselves, "Hmm.. I know deep down in my heart I should be a pimp but it's wrong..Hmm...I don't know." I know that's kind of silly, but I go back to my original point, people don't desire to be bad. They don't necissarily know that what they are doing is wrong. In their minds, they're doing what they feel they have to do. Even for the exceptions, the people who do know what they are doing is wrong, they will try to do what they can in order to better themselves. No one wants to go against society, no one wants to have a bad life. Thus, if they realize they are heading that way they will at least try to stop it. This is all because people like to fit. No one, no matter what they say, likes to be an outcast.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, as soon as I read the title of this blog I remembered that activity we did. I believe I was with Dan, Ted, Amber and Dom. It was a very interesting topic. The Dark Side of people. More often than not, people tend to try and find the good side of humanity. We are collectively ashamed to be “evil;” ashamed of the morbid and frightening occurrences of life. As much as we try to avoid the scary sides of people, we can’t. It’s impossible. Most of the time people are good at hiding it. That’s a big part of Robert Greene’s blog post. I highly agree that “sane” humans only show what they want to be shown. We have the power to decide what we tell people and we have the power to be convincing. As Greene describes, we can conceal grief, anger, pain, happiness, or whatever else we are feeling. In all I would have to say that I agree with Green in this thought-provoking article.
ReplyDeleteNow, people don’t just hide themselves to make themselves look better. When I was little my parents would hide stuff from me. I’m sure lot of parents do. This was for protection; protection from the reality of life. I’m not saying whether or not I agree with this statement because it seems irrelevant. But anyways... as humans always do, we come up for excuses as to why we hide things from other people. These range from the trite protection to love to hate and pretty much EVERYTHING in-between. I just realized something; all of the above reasons for concealing thingy’s are all emotions. Interesting. So, we feed out actions off of emotions. Sorry guys, I never really thought about this… I’m going to let this soak in a little bit.
On to the next question!! Of course3 I have a dark side. Everyone does, to me it’s just what you do with that dark side that matters. Every person gets frustrated and angered. These show the intensity of the “dark” side of humanity. All of these emotions bubble inside of every person. And because of these emotions, I find myself hiding things. Now, I don’t go around punching babies in the face every time I see one. I get really, really pissed off when I do see babies, but I try to hide that anger (aside from the horrible facial expressions! But that’s just an example).
what you said about parents made me think about the fact that maybe somethings are worth concealing, for the protection of ourselves and of others.
DeleteI can’t say that I have ever met someone that does not have a dark side. I think that what you crave depends on your situation though. If you have superstar parents that are highly conservative and you live the picture life then you’re more likely to crave partying and the darker things. Reversely I believe that if you live a crappy life with druggies that you will be more inclined to want to pull yourself out of the system. I guess I got these assumptions from people I know and too much television when I was a kid!
ReplyDeleteGeorge: I loved the little part of your response that had to do with the struggle between morals and satisfaction. I completely agree. We collectively want to instill morality and “good” into our societies and yet personal satisfaction tends to cloud that goal.
Mimi: I suppose that people who are “evil” are better off. They are more real to themselves. I guess that people who exercise their darker sides are just living their lives. Hm… I find that governments scare people into being good and those that aren’t are just being themselves.
Dan: I agree that you have a dark side. I think that everyone does. As far back as I can remember, your good side has dominated. I think that it will for a very very long time. You have great self-control and you are very respectful. To be honest, I haven’t even seen you get mad, I mean really mad. I would say though, that if your dark side does show, I don’t want to be around.
I specifically remember reading this piece and pondering over it for the rest of the day. It was such a good piece! And now that you mention it again Bunje, I wanted to ask you for The Art of Seduction. I was going to ask you before, but I forgot. Now I remember. So, can I borrow your copy sometime?
ReplyDeleteI would say the villainous characters in the world are more genuine than the “good people,” but not stronger. Yes, they aren’t afraid to show their dark side. They don’t try to push away what they really want to do. However, maybe they show their dark side because they are not strong enough to keep it hidden. Or maybe their dark side is more powerful than it is in other people and even the good people couldn’t keep something so powerful hidden. Wow that’s really confusing. What I’m trying to say is I’m not sure if there are levels of how intense the dark side can be, or levels of strength to keep the dark side hidden.
However, I don’t think the “good people” are drawn to the villains because they are more genuine than us. I think it’s because you always want what you can’t have or can’t do. The whole “the grass is always greener on the other side” thing comes in here. The grass isn’t really greener. It only seems greener because you aren’t there. Those people on the other side of the fence think your side is greener. You always want to be where you aren’t and have what you don’t have.
When I think of villains, I think of Batman villains, specifically Heath Ledger’s Joker portrayal. On a side note, if you haven’t seen this movie, go watch it right now. Then watch it again. It’s one of my favorite movies. Anyway, I think of the chaos the Joker created and how easily he could take someone who was a “good person” and bring him down to his knees and turn him into a villain. I feel like he is the epitome of what a classic villain should be. He gets people to embrace their bad side and not be afraid of letting it loose. I think it’s because everyone has a dark side and it’s just looking for a way for it to be released. Some people are willing to show it, some show it once and a while, and for some people you really have to dig to get it out. But it’s there.
I’d say I have a dark side. Everyone does, I’m included in that. There are some days I want to curse everyone out and not act what is deemed “socially acceptable.” Some days I just want to walk out of school and not think about coming back. Some days I want to flip my coach off and just never worry about it again. As I write this blog, I’m listening to music (as usual). As I scroll through the titles of the songs in my iTunes, a good amount of them have “bad” titles and have a big red EXPLICIT written next to them. I’m not saying all of them do, but a good amount. Some of the content of these songs is completely degrading and horrible, yet it doesn’t stop me from listening to it. There’s the slut, the pimp, the seducer, the villain. All of these are characters in songs that are heard on the radio today. Maybe these songs are so popular because people want what they can’t be. It’s not acceptable. Until then, we live our dark side out in movies, TV, books, and music.
Okay, we're talking about Batman, I'm interested.
DeleteI would just like to clarify your summary of the Joker's goals. The person the Joker wants to bring to his knees and embrace his bad side is Harvey Dent. The Joker's goal with Batman is much simpler: get Batman to break his only rule. (That rule having been established in Batman Begins, when Bruce Wayne tells Ra's al Ghul, "I am not an executioner.") Anyway, this is part of the reason we love the Joker so much, because he understands that all the rules we make up, write down and imply that we all have to live by add up to nothing. So he breaks them, much like we want to but "know better" than to do.
Janel: I remember you sat next to me during this activity in class and I remember that I agreed with basically everything you said during that exercise. Same thing goes here. Your blog was written so well and the content was spot on! By the way, please don't ever go around punching babies. I'm happy you restrain yourself. (:
ReplyDelete“The Dark Side” was quite an interesting article. I agree with Greene’s idea that people present to society the characteristics of them that they want to be seen with. This part stood out to me the most: “Someone who is always cheerful, pleasant and eager to help most often is concealing a lot of hidden aggression, resentment, anger. This will often come out in actions that are subtly passive aggressive and sabotaging.” Why? Well... it reminded me a bit of myself. No, actually, I’ll admit guiltily, it reminded me of myself a ton. When I read those two sentences, I was stunned at how Greene practically knew who I was, inside and out.
ReplyDeleteMy dark side is angry. And passive aggressive. And well, aggressive overall. Sometimes in my mind I plan how I will destroy (not physically) those people I disdain, when the time comes. I don’t like my dark side, and as Greene predicted, I try my best to hide it.
However, I don’t agree with Greene’s idea that people are drawn to people with “dark” traits. All the people I’ve been attracted to were..uh... nerds. Many of these people have probably never touched drugs or anything like that, let alone a girl. And all these people are far kinder and more patient than me. I suppose somewhat of an exception would be my husban- err, I mean my celebrity crush. I won’t say who he is, but I know for a fact that well, he parties hard. He’s not a drug or alcohol addict or anything like that, as far as I know, but he does say some quite provocative things. But nonetheless, it’s not his “darkness” that makes me adore him. It’s his talent and bright personality and his “goodness” that makes me like him, while his “darkness” is a bit of a setback if anything. Really, I can’t think of a time I’ve ever been attracted to someone because of the badness in them, whether it be in their actions or their personality.
I guess I should mention the people I’m friends with as well. I have some crazy friends. They get drunk, they cheat. and do other more “scandalous” things that I won’t mention. I know, everyone has at least a few of those friends. But some of the people who do those things are my close friends. My attraction to them isn’t because they do bad things, although they do tell good stories, it’s because I like their more redeeming, “good” side.
Dan (and George kinda): I never really agreed with “Ignorance is bliss” until recently. After hearing you and George’s depressing conversations in gym about “The Art of Seduction,” and pondering over it, I’m glad I’m ignorant. Just reading the article “The Dark Side” made me sad. I really don’t want to read “The Art of Seduction,” as curious as I am, since I’m far too scared the truth will ruin things for me.
Kendall: I really like the points you made in your post.
“It's the glam that attracts us though. All the attention, even if it is negative, that these characters get is what in fact may be preceived as desirable.” I agree with you here. It may just be that “bad” people stand out and are more noticeable, and thus attractions develop. I also like that you mentioned that no one likes being an outcast, which is undeniably true. Everyone wants to be accepted.
Rachel: From what I’ve heard about “The Art of Seduction,” it seems like Greene’s view is a bit manipulative. I don’t think relationships should be played like such a game, or at least, I don’t want them to be. That being said, your post was really well written I felt quite enlightened reading it. Although of course I have never read “The Art of Seduction” myself, it makes sense to me why Greene’s type of approach would not work while considering things like human emotion.
Tom: I liked how you compared the dark side to a person being drunk. A lot happens when you're drunk and I've always wondered if the angry drunks would act like that all of the time if they weren't afraid of the social consequences that would occur. I feel like that is the beast being released and if people didn't oppress that beast, it would be like angry drunks everywhere, except they were sober. Does that make sense? Because in my head it does.
ReplyDeleteGeorge: I liked your blog post in particular this week. Specifically your ideas about the struggle between immediate satisfaction and moral righteousness. It was really insightful. I also thought it was funny that both of us used the Joker.
ReplyDeleteI want to start by saying some of my friends have recommended that I read the Art of Seduction, so (being the big reader I am) I plan on reading it this summer.
ReplyDeleteOk now onto the blog!
I wish to talk about my own dark side first, so I will. Yes, I do have a dark side. My dark side doesn't come out often, but when it does it can get ugly. Garret refers to my dark side as "douche bag bobby" but I actually haven't heard him use that term in a while, so I guess that's a good thing. My dark side, when it does come out however, is very angry and mean. I snap easily, and become very short with people. I really only care about things that I want and need, disregarding all others. It actually takes a lot to push me over to this side though. You need to bug me for like a week straight before I finally snap on you, but when I do, it all comes out. I think, in a way, having this dark side is healthy, though. I mean, my mom always used to tell me not to hold things in, so when they finally bother me enough, I let them loose. I think that's perfectly normal.
And that leads me to my next point. I believe everyone that is alive has a dark side. It's human nature to have some sort of "villain-ish" side to you. I mean, everyone is mean at one point, everyone gets angry, everyone snaps. If you are always calm and always nice, you're almost chastised in todays society.
But that is for the general definition of "dark side". If i were to answer with my own feelings about a "dark side" I would say that no such thing exists. You are simply one person down to your core. You're the same person when you're angry as when you're sad as when you're happy and so on. Some are just a little more expressive of their emotions than others. Some get really mean, and then cool off fast. Some hold grudges and that's that. However, this just goes to show that everyone's different. I don't think we should say we have different personalities because that's not true at all. You're one person. Being mad or doing things that are "wrong" is normal.
Now do people go and try to do things that are wrong on purpose? Of course they do. Look at every single teenager across the country. YOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what everyone is saying. People always look for an excuse to do the wrong thing or get in trouble. People always try to do the wrong thing because, honestly, what's the fun in doing something without a little risk? Why do people sky dive? I mean, if you were someone who wanted to sky dive, would you still do it if you knew 100 percent that you were going to be ok? My answer is no, because if you know the outcome, it's no fun. The things that are the most fun are the things that you don't know what's going to happen next. That's the way it always is. So when people do the wrong thing, it's so that they are excited by the next turn.
One thing I really agreed with in the reading that I remember was that seeing the dark side of someone is seeing who they really are, and seeing them at their worst. But now that I think about it, it's not who they really are. They are who they really are everyday. That's the other thing I hate; everyone saying "oh he/she's fake." No, I'm pretty sure he/she is not made out of plastic. Real human being people. "Well she's different around you then she is around me." Ok, aren't we all? We know how to act around different people. That's part of our personality. Everyone has different personalities. They also can be known as emotion!
I'm ranting now. But basically, there is no such thing as a dark side. If there is, I have one, and so does everyone else. It's healthy. People just act differently with different emotion. They do the wrong thing on purpose because it's fun, and emotion controls you. The end.
I liked the Dark Side, although it made too many generalizations about humanity. I have a feeling Robert Greene does that a lot, what with the subjects he writes on. But his instruction manuals on how to toy with people also seem to be all-encompassing, taking into account all the types of people, even though that seems to be impossible. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe his generalizations are accurate. But I still don’t feel like I have a dark side. Or I just seem to have a milder one. Of course, we all want to do wrong sometimes, because it feels good, and it’s easy. Maybe I just have weaker urges or less evil ideas in mind. Or maybe I’m just saying these things, believing them, while I really am part of Greene’s generalization.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I don’t agree with Robert Greene. I have no doubt that everyone has a dark side, but Greene seems to exaggerate it a lot, and also exaggerates the way we act in regards to our dark side. Just because I’m rather cheery and nice most of the time doesn’t mean I have a secret desire to become the leader of those prostitutes over at Acme (you know the ones). Instead, maybe I want to punch someone in the face occasionally. But is that really the dark side Greene was talking about? Instead, he talked about seriously letting loose with our dark sides, and admiring those who’ve done so already. I haven’t found myself admiring any pimps lately. Is it just because pimps killed my family? Or is it because I don’t really think pimps are in an ethical line of work? Either way, I still don’t admire pimps just because I’m not one.
As for myself, of course I have a dark side. Greene was right when he said that every person has a dark side. But not everyone’s dark side can be the root of all evil. My dark side consists of some curiosity, vulgarity, and the occasional desire to smack someone upside the head for doing something stupid. How this came about, I don’t know. I’m not secretly an angry, aggressive person on the inside, despite what Greene might say. And when I’m angry I don’t attempt to hide it, although it’s not something I show often either. When I was on the band trip I started telling this kid why I was frustrated that day, and he stared at me, amazed, because I was showing emotion. And I realized that, aside from my witty remarks and occasional words of advice, I don’t talk much about myself in band. Maybe Greene was really just talking about the side we don’t share with most people, instead of the side we hid from everyone. Either way, I still don’t admire pimps.
To George: I thought your discussion of Sigmund Freud was a nice addition to the topic. While some villains acknowledge both the good and the bad aspects of the world, most of them don’t balance between those aspects. They choose to live darker lives because they probably don’t like the good aspects. I like how you said one who blocks these desires of a darker life are better, in your opinion, but it’s strange that think people who are less genuine are better. I guess it’s choosing the lesser of two evils, although one is good. You know what I mean.
ReplyDeleteTo Tom: I agree that putting others down for dark purposes of selfishness is just a terrible thing. You may have a radical view of the effects of alcohol, but it’s better than underestimating the effects it can have on people’s minds. I also really value my morals, but I don’t think that those who are idolized for their dark side are necessarily happier than you. I would venture to say that you live a much happier life. In the end, isn’t happiness just what we want?
To Bobby: I agree with you that having a concealed dark side is healthy and normal. It’s even better when the amount of agitation it takes to reach that line is large enough so that you rarely cross that line. Your example of skydiving was fitting, but it’s pretty funny that you basically said it’s no fun if you know you’re going to live. I was pleased to see you addressed the whole “fake” issue of teenagers today. Honestly, I don’t even completely understand what it means to be “fake.” I wouldn’t be able to point out someone who’s “fake” because who everyone seems to be is who they really are, as far as I can tell.
The ideas that Greene suggests in his are very interesting. I have several doubts about his theories based on my own experiences. The piece as a whole was highly intriguing and really made me question my self and the people that I readily involve myself with. I do believe that there are some universal truths to what Greene has to say, the first being that we all have traits that we often keep concealed also that we only allow others to see what we want them too. However I feel that the idea of everyone having a “dark side” that they intentionally kept concealed because that is who they truly are is a bit too broad. A few people come to mind when I think about personalities; the first is Garrett, then Nyamekye, and then (for writing purposes Joe, because I know this person would not want me writing about him on here) Joe.
ReplyDeleteThe other day Ms. Bunje was mentioning that even though he doesn’t always have it all together, Garrett is very honest with himself and his faults and embraces them, so much so that this honesty has become a trademark of his personality. Now I cant really speak in great detail about Garrett but I completely agree with Ms. Bunje. But if you were to apply Greene’s ideas to Garrett what kind of person would we have? A soft-spoken, studious, and meek individual, that is what I think would lie beneath the surface of Garrett Thomas, which means that he’s concealing all these qualities all the time, but he doesn’t. There are times when Garrett is not being stereotypically “Garrett” which in itself should say something about Greene’s proposal. If we sometimes display traits that are opposite to how we ”normally” then what are we concealing?
Next brings me to Nyamekye. I remember having a conversation with her in Latin one day and I remember her saying something about the fact that she thinks people (in general) have shifted their opinion of her in the recent years because she has become a little more outspoken. I think I could confidently say that I believe both these things are true. First, obviously people’s opinion on you is going to change when you change. But secondly I think her “outspoken-ness” has come from a place that she may have originally concealed but she has found that she either likes this side of herself, or that the people who she really cares about, haven’t allowed their opinions to shift based solely on her stating her opinion. But from what I understood from Greene (and there’s always a possibility that I’m wrong) didn’t he say that we keep these concealed basically indefinitely?
Well thank you olivia, i appreciate that you appreciate my personality. In no way am i saying you enjoy it, or you like it or any of that, but i can tell by this post that you appreciate it. And, you're absolutely correct in saying that i am who i am and well you all know it. By the way, come on, we've been in school together since Kindergarten and you spelled my name with two t's...
DeleteThe greatest pastime in human history is categorizing. We like the aspects of our lives delineated in black and white. We organize because it’s easy. Organization allows our little brains to grasp concepts that would otherwise be intangible. However, not every concept can simply be lumped together into self-contained classes. Take good and evil, for example. The light side and the dark side. Furthermore, as humans, we take these ideals and group them neatly together. This is not the reality of the situation, however.
ReplyDeleteWith this idea in mind, I’d like to immediately throw it out there that I do have a dark side. In fact, my dark side rears its ugly head more often than I realize. This recalls another discussion we had earlier this year. I forget the exact details, but we were discussing whether a good deed is still “good” if the reasoning behind the deed was malicious. Well, I did, and still do, hold conviction in the fact that doing good is doing good, no matter what the circumstances. That being said, my darkest side is often hidden through good deeds. I’ll be the first to admit that many of the things I’ve done for others have been for my own personal gain. Let’s be honest, at some point, everyone has done something good to get a leg up on another person. Last year, Garret said something along the lines of, “I am willing to step on other’s heads to get ahead” in a conversation with Mr. Costal. I remember it clearly because it made me reflect upon why I do what I do. Thanks, Garret.
Furthermore, I do agree with Greene’s ideals to an extent. Humans are drawn to the dark side (insert Star Wars reference here). The dark side represents all of the longings that society has forced us to repress daily. Promiscuity and violence are human nature. Once, they were required for the species to continue. Now, however, they are rendered nearly useless. Thus, when given the opportunity, we wish to expel all of this pent up emotion that resides within us. This is why we are drawn to the dark side.
Final summation: I have a dark side. It’s not a dark side that is obvious, but it’s there. A dark side is a powerful tool, no matter how it’s used. It can serve as a device by which one gets ahead. Consequently, the dark side of humanity is so often suppressed that when it shows itself, things get ugly. Outward douchebaggery (why does my Microsoft word not spell check that word?) can be a result of an inner dark side showing itself. The fact of the matter is, everyone has a dark side. It is how we portray that dark side, and how we use it, that makes the difference.
I feel like there was alot of ideas packed into this response. I also enjoy the fact that we both mentioned Garrett. But i disagree that society represses things like Promiscuity, violence, and human nature, in fact i think that society encourages all of these.
DeleteWow, two Garret references in one blog, i must be on a roll. It is a little bit discouraging though that the blog that i appear in out of all the blogs we've done is the one about a true dark side. Kinda scary, makes you not wanna sit next to me in class anymore, eh?
DeleteOn the contrary, Joe is exactly the type of person that Mr. Greene is describing. I have known Joe all my life and he is, on the surface, exactly the person he envisions himself to be. So much so in fact that he has close to altered personalities depending on who is around. His coworkers absolutely adore him, but his friends know that he is actually very selfish, insecure, terrible at managing things, and so on. Even so however for someone who compartmentalizes their life to such a point still lets their “dark side” out more than once on a blue moon.
ReplyDeleteThis being said I have as much of a dark side as anyone else. Am I hiding a whole different Olivia from you guys? No. That would honestly be too much work. But do I control my actions so that some of my less desirable traits don’t shine, sure but that’s based more so on social constraints than it is hiding myself. As Sirus Black once said “Besides, the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters. We've all got both light and dark inside us. What matters is the part we choose to act on. That's who we really are.”
I remember reading Robert Greene’s article in class and I was definitely intrigued by what he had to say. I would like to say that I’m a very observational person when it comes to people’s actions. Human behavior is intriguing to me and knowing why people act the way that they do. And I’ve come to a conclusion. Everyone has a dark side. I agree with Robert Greene. Some people are harder to decipher than others. But I see those sudden, unexpected outbursts every once in a while. A person may be headstrong and tough on the outside, but deep down they are hiding something. Certain people are very insecure about themselves. Social acceptability is a huge part of this. Greene mentioned homosexuality. People can pretend to be homophobic, but inside, they are yearning to come out of the closet. They know they can’t do that because they will be ridiculed and harassed. I don’t blame them for wanting to hide that part of them. With this being said, people’s dark sides are truly genuine. But the thing is, certain people have self-control. They know exactly what they’re dark side is, but they try to conceal it because they know life would be terrible if they didn’t. Others don’t have self-control. I think villains only have a dark side. They aren’t trying to hide anything because there is simply nothing to hide. And I’m talking about pure, evil villains. I understand what Greene is saying he says people are attracted to a person’s dark side because they are more genuine. I don’t exactly agree with that. Like I said, some people have self-control. We may have an urge to punch someone in the face or tell someone off, but in the end, we know what our morals are. Some people’s dark sides are overlooked and I think it’s for the better. I know I do it everyday when it comes to my friends and family. It’s frustrating but it’s who they are. It’s part of their human nature. Something happened between my dad and I yesterday and I simply told him, “it’s okay, I understand why you’re like this, it’s because you were never taught how to comfort someone when you were younger.”
ReplyDeleteI have a dark side. No doubt. I wouldn’t say I’m not an angry person. But my dark side probably consists of short temper (lots of cursing sometimes), judging others, etc. If I wanted to say or do everything that comes to mind, I’m pretty sure a lot of people would hate me. But luckily, I do have self-control. Here’s another scenario of self-control. Let’s say your father was an alcoholic and beat you when you were younger. Chances are you’re alcoholic and beat your own kids as well right? No. You control your own behavior. Things might happen in your childhood that might push the pendulum to an extreme, but it’s up to that own person to choose the path they want to take in life.
I think I touched on self control, but the exact phrase never really came to mind. That said, it's a good point. Self control is what keeps our dark side in check, and keeps us from being attracted to the dark siders. Of course, over-looking the dark sides of other people is exactly what Mr. Greene wouldn't want you to do, but in the end it's almost necessary to maintain the daily interactions we have with others.
DeleteI definitely enjoyed the Greene piece. Many of the things he stated about seeming to hate the things we actually desire definitely made sense to me. I’ve found that I greatly enjoy Robert Greene’s writing.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I can’t say I agree with him a hundred percent. Some of the things he claims make a lot (a lot a lot) of sense, and appeals to my own thoughts and rationale greatly. However, some of his claims leave me less than convinced.
I’m more than sure that we all have a dark side. There can’t be good without evil, yin and yang, the power of free will and all that. However I don’t think that everyone is necessarily the exact opposite of who we perceive them to be. I think that’s a bit extreme. I think that Greene’s claims apply to certain aspects of our character and lives.
I know for a fact that we all like a little bit of villain, whether it be because they are more genuine or for another reason. That’s shown through the whole good girl falling for the bad boy archetype. We all seem to be attracted to the dark side at least in part at one point in our lives. I think it may also have to do with the fact that the dark side doesn’t have rules to follow. They are wild and rebellious and free to do whatever they desire because they don’t have morals or society holding them back. They seem to have no fear of consequences. While not always smart, being able to do things without worrying about the consequences is something I think most people desire. The light side, while (obviously) good, can become predictable, and thus, boring. The dark side promises to add a bit of spice to life-they always keep thing interesting. You also have tales and stories such as Broadway’s Wicked, in which you hear the story from the side of the darker character, and find yourself either understanding them or (sometimes surprisingly) rooting for them.
Do I have a dark side? You betchya. Ever heard of teenage rebellion? We all lie. I’ve cheated. I’ve broken a few rules here and there. It’s never been enough to get me into serious trouble, but that little taste of darkness is very alluring, and can make things very exciting. Why else would we have people breaking rules left and right? Because it’s fun, it’s exciting, it’s profitable. I don’t, however, happen to think that how I act is opposite to my deepest desires-that sounds like a lot of effort to keep up with over a lifetime. Everyone has a dark side, and those who deny it are just that; in denial (No, it really isn’t just a river in Egypt). They’re fooling themselves because they are scared of the dark side taking over. (A bit is fun and acceptable, but no one ever wants to be completely evil; no one wants to be the next Hitler or Stalin. Except maybe some crazed and power hungry individuals, but we’re talking about the masses here.) Overall, I think Greene makes a great and valid point-one that I think more people should be exposed to, if only to allow them to know themselves a bit better.
George: I love your distinction between the admirable qualities of both good and bad people, and I appreciate a good Joker reference anywhere (Batman is obviously the coolest of the superheroes, and the Joker is a great character). I definitely agree that it is amenable to be able to block the siren call of our darkest desires. Although I would further make the distinction that the admirable good people were the ones that do it for themselves, or maybe for the good of others, but not because they fear what others would think of them (if that makes any sense).
ReplyDeleteTom: I like the way you began your comment. It really does amaze me to think back of the attitudes of people in the last 100 years, and then compare them to the attitudes of people now. It saddens me a bit how differently the human race acts in today’s times. Where as people used to be willing to work for what they got, they now expect handouts. There are many more examples of this, but you get the gist. I wonder if that means that modern people are becoming better at embracing their dark sides.
Mimi: I love how you incorporated real and fake self. I sort of alluded to that in my post, but I like that you outright included it. I also think that sometimes your real self isn’t necessarily dark in the negative connotation way, but just in the sense that it is hidden from the world. Sometimes people can be hiding really sweet and caring personalities, for various reasons, the most common seems to be to avoid being hurt/taken advantage of.
When I initially read the article “The Darks Side”, I recognized Robert Greene’s sheer intelligence and obvious mastery of his seductive system. The portion that I found most perplexing was his description of the wrongs that were committed by the ALLURE author. It was at this point that everything came clear to me—and I shouted deeply in my mind “This magnificent bastard!” What Robert Greene has developed is a near fool proof plan for wiggling out of any unpleasant situation with other people. He near convinces his audience that he is in fact an upright and decent person. But upon closer examination I find Greene to be disturbing in a sense. I say “disturbing” for the single reason that I believe his tactics and strategies to be not only dark, but almost eerily too powerful. Manipulation is a valid tool but at some point there is a line that when crossed ushers in a new domain of influence that is both inappropriate and sinister.
ReplyDeleteBut regarding his comments on human nature (that we are naturally attracted to individuals that portray a negative role in society) is pretty much spot on. I suppose we glamorize these individuals for the reasons that Greene points out—that we conceal our own dark sides and deep down we want to purge upon that side because we covet and lust towards that very mentality. I consider myself to have a dark side as I and Greene believe everyone does. My dark side, I admit, I do conceal very often. But every so often when in wither a fit of rage or under certain stressful circumstances that side will shine through and become apparent—not only under these circumstances, but in situations in which I am either overconfident or seemingly lacking a care (comfortable)—my dark side ever so slyly breeches through the walls that blockade my thoughts.
I can honestly say that I very much do enjoy my dark side. I’m not so sure that it is more genuine than what I typically convey, but I can honestly vouch that the darkest form of anyone is really their true self. In one’s dark self, one’s true colors often shine through. Whether or not this darker form is a hell of a lot different than the self-portrayed individual is a whole different matter in itself, but the truth still holds true.
It is of my opinion though that there exists both a good dark side and a bad dark side. A good dark side could be described as a rebellious or righteous spirit that may be viewed as dark from an external audience. It is what one does with this dark side that matters—one can easily mix cunning, wit, and aggressive behavior together to concoct a recipe for the betterment of the world. But at the same time, a dark side can be misused. I’m not talking about a dark side that revolves around prostitution, drugs, and misdemeanor (this is stupidity rather than a dark side of any sort). I’m talking about a dark side that is intelligent but at the same time warped to commit wrong upon others. When one’s more sinister side shines through to a degree that is out of control only disaster ensues.
So what I propose is that one needs to identify with this dark side and accept it. Accept it but also channel it properly for betterment that does not harm others in the process. A dark side that would include seduction or manipulation of others is a viable tool for getting ahead. But, one must stop themselves before they get ahead of themselves and do any notable damage.
Emily: We talked about this before I think in study hall and how we overlook or ignore people’s dark sides. When people’s dark traits are apparent all the time, I choose to ignore that person as a whole. I think you would agree. I said this in my blog post, but I choose to overlook a person’s dark side for the better. It’s who they are and you can’t change it.
ReplyDeleteJanel: “If you have superstar parents that are highly conservative and you live the picture life then you’re more likely to crave partying and the darker things.” I like that you mentioned this! I would say this is usually true. But it all depends on the person. People are affected greatly by their childhood but it’s up to them to make their own decisions on how they want to live their life.
Tom: “They may be more successful than me—in terms of money, fame, women, and happiness—but they do not have the thing that I value most: morality for the populace.” I thought this was very well said! And I agree. Not everyone is attracted to these kind of people, even if they aren’t afraid to show their dark side. I can’t imagine looking up to them either. Certain situations really showcase our moral values and that matters a lot to people.
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ReplyDeleteI may as well throw this right out in the open, but I can’t remember ever being fully innocent. I can recall pretending to be a wolf in Pre-K. Even back then I was proud of my nails. I liked to howl a lot. I used to watch animal planet, as often if not more often than Nickelodeon, and my favorite animals always ending up being the most powerful. Wolverines held the top spot for a while with their ability to scare off a full grown bear and take down a moose. My favorite snake became the Black Mamba, my little buddy who can kill 200 men with a drop of venom. My favorite poison is Thallium. I’m not sure it’s even normal to have a favorite poison and snake. People don’t respond well to the question. I watched just about every crime show on television back in eighth grade.
ReplyDeleteAnd now I’ve recently discovered Hannibal Lecter. I think I quoted the liver part at least five times today. I wish I could say I was joking but I can’t. I even worked in the, “I’m having an old friend for dinner,” line. Schuyler helped me discover Van Gogh and I presented him with the most wickedly awesome escape scene ever to be invented in the history of forever. I will never forget when the implications of the ambulance scene set on his face.
So, in short, clearly I have a dark side. We are drawn to the seducer, the pimp, the hustler, the cannibal. Of course, I don’t just flaunt this dark side around like it’s some great accomplishment. Much like me, it’s hidden in the dark. The power is out now. I only have so much time before my laptop dies.
But to live free like Hannibal Lecter, to be so honest with who we are, to be so carefree and just do what we want all the time… that’s the allure of it. My mom is within two yards of me complaining about the power being out and telling me to text my best friend whose mother works at Atlantic Electric. But why would I want to? Aside from posting this blog before twelve I get to waste away in silence. There’s nothing to fog me up. It’s an odd comparison, but who do I have to pretend to be in the dark? It’s like every day I surround myself with light and shudder from the shadows where my dark side resides. But here and now we’ve coalesced into one being. I can be proud of the entire page worth of Hannibal Lecter pictures in the gallery on my phone. The search history of my phone, yeah, a lot of it consists of “Fava beans and a nice chianti” and “Hannibal Lecter Escape scene 1, 2, & 3.” Being a cannibal would bring me no joy. When I watch Silence of the Lambs, watching Anthony Hopkins eat off some cop’s face doesn’t bring me intense joy and satisfaction. How could a girl who dislikes killing a fly ever eat a human (intentionally)? What’s so alluring about Hopkins’s character is the raw control. He doesn’t just bring up the liver story to scare Clarisse. It comes after she tries to turn his prodding ways on him. But Hannibal Lecter does not flinch. He does not scowl with a wounded pride. He doesn’t pretend to be anybody. He doesn’t feel the need to be anybody. He does not paint an angel’s face on his own and spend his whole life in agony perfecting his moral standards. What he wants, he gets. When Clarisse asks Hannibal, a psychologist who just violated her personal thoughts, why he never looks in on himself, and if it’s because he’s afraid of what he’ll find, he knows he has nothing to find. There is nowhere to look inside of Hannibal. He has no lambs that he’s trying to silence. Hannibal is Hannibal.
I may as well throw this right out in the open, but I can’t remember ever being fully innocent. I can recall pretending to be a wolf in Pre-K. Even back then I was proud of my nails. I liked to howl a lot. I used to watch animal planet, as often if not more often than Nickelodeon, and my favorite animals always ending up being the most powerful. Wolverines held the top spot for a while with their ability to scare off a full grown bear and take down a moose. My favorite snake became the Black Mamba, my little buddy who can kill 200 men with a drop of venom. My favorite poison is Thallium. I’m not sure it’s even normal to have a favorite poison and snake. People don’t respond well to the question. I watched just about every crime show on television back in eighth grade.
ReplyDeleteAnd now I’ve recently discovered Hannibal Lecter. I think I quoted the liver part at least five times today. I wish I could say I was joking but I can’t. I even worked in the, “I’m having an old friend for dinner,” line. Schuyler helped me discover Van Gogh and I presented him with the most wickedly awesome escape scene ever to be invented in the history of forever. I will never forget when the implications of the ambulance scene set on his face.
So, in short, clearly I have a dark side. We are drawn to the seducer, the pimp, the hustler, the cannibal. Of course, I don’t just flaunt this dark side around like it’s some great accomplishment. Much like me, it’s hidden in the dark. The power is out now. I only have so much time before my laptop dies.
But to live free like Hannibal Lecter, to be so honest with who we are, to be so carefree and just do what we want all the time… that’s the allure of it. My mom is within two yards of me complaining about the power being out and telling me to text my best friend whose mother works at Atlantic Electric. But why would I want to? Aside from posting this blog before twelve I get to waste away in silence. There’s nothing to fog me up. It’s an odd comparison, but who do I have to pretend to be in the dark? It’s like every day I surround myself with light and shudder from the shadows where my dark side resides. But here and now we’ve coalesced into one being. I can be proud of the entire page worth of Hannibal Lecter pictures in the gallery on my phone. The search history of my phone, yeah, a lot of it consists of “Fava beans and a nice chianti” and “Hannibal Lecter Escape scene 1, 2, & 3.” Being a cannibal would bring me no joy. When I watch Silence of the Lambs, watching Anthony Hopkins eat off some cop’s face doesn’t bring me intense joy and satisfaction. How could a girl who dislikes killing a fly ever eat a human (intentionally)? What’s so alluring about Hopkins’s character is the raw control. He doesn’t just bring up the liver story to scare Clarisse. It comes after she tries to turn his prodding ways on him. But Hannibal Lecter does not flinch. He does not scowl with a wounded pride. He doesn’t pretend to be anybody. He doesn’t feel the need to be anybody. He does not paint an angel’s face on his own and spend his whole life in agony perfecting his moral standards. What he wants, he gets. When Clarisse asks Hannibal, a psychologist who just violated her personal thoughts, why he never looks in on himself, and if it’s because he’s afraid of what he’ll find, he knows he has nothing to find. There is nowhere to look inside of Hannibal. He has no lambs that he’s trying to silence. Hannibal is Hannibal.
So when Clarisse, smirk and all, asks Hannibal this, he merely leans into the wall of his jail cell. His icy blue eyes are just a little too wide to create a calm look of normalcy. Without blinking, he says clearly, enunciating each syllable, “A census worker once tried to test me.” Still he doesn’t blink. He does not call out Clarisse for what she’s said to him. She’s wronged him in no way. “I ate his liver,” he says stoically, his eyes not even betraying a hint of amusement, “with some fava beans, and a nice chianti.” Suddenly his gaze breaks and the smile encroaches upon his face, as he practically air slurps. Clarisse looks shaken, to say the least.
ReplyDeleteWhat’s not to love? Jesus Christ, when he’s escaping, one cannot help but cheer him on. Even confined in a jail cell he’s as free a man as I ever saw. When somebody hides a side of them in the confines of their mind, it can only eat away like acid. To be what you are and nothing more is total freedom. I wouldn’t say that by denouncing cannibalism, you’re necessarily equally for cannibalism, secretly and all. Really, you’re just against the freedom that group exhibits.
The freedom you deny yourself.
Emily: I feel that in that kind of way our personalities are similar. That darkness is like a constant Napoleonic Complex playing out. I agree that, if anything, good traits are far more attractive than bad traits. But I do think that even if the bad traits themselves are not so attractive, what the display of those bad traits stands for is. Even if I don’t agree with what somebody is doing, the lure of their freedom is somewhat attractive.
Janel: I completely agree that everybody has a dark side. I kind of toy around with the concept of what defines a person: their thoughts or how they handle those thoughts. So even if a good person has bad thoughts, are they still a good person as long as they don’t act on those bad thoughts? Unless somebody a complete idiot and is somehow too stupid to be bad, everybody has to be somewhat messed up. And I love the baby part. I love kids, but babies are just wrinkly and weird.
Rachel: Huh, so you told me to read yours, and I pretty much completely disagree. It’s like, everything you said is what I would initially agree with on the surface, but I just don’t buy it. I would never say it’s good to not try to be better, but what Robert Greene is saying makes sense. If, as you say, we are defined by our true selves, and not by the actions we employ to cover up these true selves, then who is are is truly bad. It’s not letting your dark side take control; it’s not being fake. It’s not pretending. How can anybody know true friendship if they spend the majority of their time hiding a part of themselves? If you’re not true to yourself, how can you know anything to be true? I can’t word this well, but I don’t think there’s such a thing as giving into your dark side. It’s not a side, it’s you. You can change yourself slowly, but you can only cover it up for so long. I don’t think it’s such a positive thing to transform yourself either to the embodiment of good either.
Hi Amber, i was so close to making Hannibal references in mine and i'm kind of glad i didn't now, wouldn't want to step on your toes. Even though your post is relatively dark and probably not where i would've went with the whole Hannibal thing, i do love me some Mr. Lecter.
DeleteListen: the prize will always go to whoever is willing to be the bigger bastard.
ReplyDeleteWell, unless you're Gandhi.
But I digress.
Listen: Robert Green is not a bastard. Well, not for writing this article, at least. He's right, but that's another thing altogether.
If there's one thing I've learned from living on Earth for 17 years, it's that people are 100% insane. People have a light side, a red side, some kind of twilit side. A plaid side.
And a dark side. Yes, I think. That one that gets jealous, that gets mad. That one that reminds you, yeah, how easy it would be to stab somebody? Really easy, is the answer. Maybe too easy?
But now, LISTEN: the Dark Side is the Beast. It's what's left over from when we were lizards, or even apes; it's what we tried to dismiss or make more subtle when we realized we could use it to deliver a pointed remark to the same effect as a pointed stick.
So we pretended we don't use it anymore.
But it's used every time you've calculated how to get ahead, every time you've done something because you know, if you do this, it'll get you exactly where you need to go, and at what cost...? Best not to think it. And the Beast smiles in the dank corners of your head, because the Beast loves power.
Oof. How morbid.
But the thing is, you don't let the beast control you. And every hustler, pimp, murderer, takes it too far. You don't indulge the dark side. You keep it leashed, subdued. The Dark Side works because it IS the Dark Side. No one wishes to look into eyes where the demons sit and stare back. At that point, perhaps, you forfeit your right to be a person.
So are we drawn to those people? Yes, but only because we know they have crossed a line. They have become the metaphorical werewolf; they have embraced the Beast and relinquished their humanity. We know we would, well, probably never rape, or murder, or mount human kidneys on our walls, but we smile, and we watch with all the intensity of watching a car crash, because we know we would never take that final step and become like that. We would never trade humanity for power and the freedom to use it. Would we? Could we?
But underneath it all, there's that feeling...
And we know we could.
Schuyler, I firmly agree with everything that you said, especially the keeping your dark side on a leash thought. It is true that one's dark side is used in nealry every chance there is to get ahead. But as you mention, indulging in one's dark side to a certain degree will put one in the league with murderers and hustlers. Also, props on the beast analogy.
DeleteCan I have a tweed side?
DeleteBut the dark side is not left over from pre-human ancestors (I'm amused by your "when we were apes" line, because we still are apes.) Apes don't murder each other for no reason, they murder each other for good, practical things: food and sex, usually. Humans murder each other for useless things like moral codes, racial identity and religion. We have our own beasts that we came up with all by ourselves, because trust me, we don't need help from our ape brethren to learn how to be terrible to each other. (Although that might make more sense in the original Planet of the Apes.)
Olivia: That’s really funny, when I read this blog I thought about Garret and Nyamekye. I completely agree with everything you said about them. I admire their honesty and all of their other qualities that make them, well them.
ReplyDeleteEmily: Hahah! I want to know who this celebrity crush is now! I think all girls are attracted to bad asses, I wish I knew why. But anyways I agree with you, a lot of my friends are also nerds and I am also attracted to nice people. But don’t you ever wonder about the other side? Haha
Kendall: I love your examples that you give in your blogs. It really does help explain what you are trying to say. I also love your blogs because when I read them I feel like you are right next to me, explaining everything. But anyways I like what you said about people being attracted to the negative attention that bad people receive. I totally agree with you!
Emily: I'm glad that you don't have affection for people because of their "badness", but I am also glad that you have friends that aren't always the goody-two-shoes that are so-often in the AP classes. I believe that every person needs to have at least one or two friends that are not particularly law-abiding citizens (but I don't think someone should have ALL 'bad' friends) because it can teach things about yourself that are important to know. I would get more into this, but then you'd be up all night reading my response, so I won't do that to you.
ReplyDeleteGeorge: I find it funny that we disagree so much in our blogs because your blog actually triggered some ideas for me to write about. I guess we're just ideologically opposed about this sort of thing, but you might just think that I'm actually in complete agreement with you on the inside.
Dan: I think that your analysis of yourself is fairly accurate. You can be passive aggressive (quite often actually), but your other good traits stand out far better than your bad traits. The clothes that people wear, I would have to agree, do indicate what type of personality the person has to offer. I guess my red shorts and red shoes and red shirts would indicate something about my personality, and so do my infinitely greater number of blue shirts. Maybe my psyche has caused me to buy more blue shirts than red for a reason? Oh well, nice blog Dan.
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ReplyDeleteAmber:
ReplyDeleteI’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. But after reading yours and everyone else’s posts, I realize that my definition of what a dark side is doesn’t match up. I think that being rebellious and not following the rules that society writes for us isn’t dark at all. If anything, the dark side of a person is the side that follows those rules even when he believes them to be wrong. According to this line of thought, the dark side is the side that should be neglected as often as possible. But maybe my definition of “dark side” should be tweaked…
First off, I'd like to give a shout out to Oakcrest's own Hira Zeb for posting the article on the Facebook Lang page because not only do i never remember reading this, i couldn't find it either. So, thanks Hira. Anyway, upon reading his article, i felt stupid. I felt like the author, Greene, was trying to belittle me and talk down to me. It's nothing specific really in the reading, i just felt that when i was scanning over the article. I do agree with some things he says, yet on the other hand, i do disagree with some things he says also. I agree that people show the side that they want the world to see and not necessarily the side that they really are. But, if there's only one side that anybody ever sees, does the other side really exist? Well, yes, in that person's head and only there. Which is why i thought it was interesting, well not interesting, it's just truth, that the word personality comes from the Latin word for mask. Mask; it's often would people put on instead of showing themselves, their true personality. Now, although I do believe in that, I can't say i agree with his opposite theory. Just because you strongly oppose something doesn't mean you secretly love it on the inside. That almost always not the case. Now, yes there are some cases of that, but not nearly enough to see all are that way or even a majority of them are. Just based off the fact that he makes such rash generalizations, i don't like the guy. He puts a generalization of an entire race off a few people which i believe he may have miscounted, or something along those lines.
ReplyDeleteI think it's fun to be interested in the bad guy. For me personally, i don't find the bad guys interesting because i think they're more genuine. I think i find them interesting because they're relatively rare and you don't really come across the bad guys that often. Personally, i'm fascinated by serial killers, and i'm not talking the CSI: Miami versions, i'm talking about the real ones, the BTK Killer, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, these are the guys i love researching and finding out more about. I love seeing how they were raised, why they did what they did, who they targeted, where they lived, and the way they killed is just fascinating. Yes, horrible it may be, but so very fascinating.
I don't think i have a dark side, so to say. I think i have more of a less light side. I might not make the best decisions all the time and i might not be the perfect angel that my mother has tried to raise, but i definitely don't have an evil side or dark side. Even if you were to say i had a "dark" side, is it really dark, if everyone has seen it. I don't hide my true colors, I'll show people my lightest sides and my least lighted side(the dark side). I really don't think you can still categorize it as a dark side if everyone sees it, knows it, and accepts it. Overall, i don't like this Greene guy, i do agree with some of his ideals, i like serial killers, and i don't really have a dark side.
I don't think that you have a dark side yet, however I couldn't tell because I'm not you. I just don't think that the "dark side" has to be completely bad, it's just something that you try to blow off a bit, something that you don't want to be so you forget about it. I'm sure that one day we'll all have at least one or two things that have that effect on us.
DeleteRachel: Well that clears everything up. I can see why you wouldn't like Greene for that. But I get what you're saying now. I don't agree with doing something you know is wrong either, and that's another form of a dark side for sure.
ReplyDeleteOlivia: I hate to do this, but *Garret. Anyway, I think it's funny that this blog both made us think of Garret. Also, I have the completely opposite idea about society's impact on these sorts of things. If it were left to human nature, guys would have eight partners and would be having kids with all of them. Society saps what is true human nature.
ReplyDeleteRachel: I completely disagree. The major premise of "Humans are not robots" is the first flaw, in my opinion. You see, humans basically are robots. Maybe we are all wired a bit differently and react to stimuli differently. But, what's going on with the neurons up in your head is not much different than what's going on in mine. You see, the human dark side shouldn't be repressed, it should be embraced with open arms. Doing otherwise would be suppressing your humanity.
Tom: I'd like to comment on your drug opinions. Drugs are not the problem. People are the problem. Not everyone who uses drugs for recreation is a villain. I'm not trying to say you were implying that, but I'm just throwing it out there.
George: I think people like the Joker aren't any more genuine, just crazy. People who are all dark side are just as fake as people who are all light side.
ReplyDeleteSchuyler: I disagree with everything you said and furthermore I hope you die.
Hira & Company: I've never really gotten hanging out with the bad people. It doesn't seem that fun to me. I know I could do a bunch of drugs and stuff if I really wanted to, but I don't. Besides, I think drugged up people still wouldn't manage to have conversations as weird as the ones I have.
Amber: I'm not even sure if this was mentioned even tangentially in your post, but I love the dark. You can be whoever you want in it. It shrinks the world to yourself but then opens your mind to everywhere. Also I pretty much agree with the other stuff you said, but what else is new.
Tom: I do kind of agree with Matt, though. It all comes down to human behavior. Drugs are just tools. Wacky tools, but still.
Ted: I'm glad you love your dark side. That's good. You've got to comes to terms with it either way, even if you don't love it. But I wouldn't say it's the truest form of a person. See above.
I guess I didn't talk about my dark side. I do what I say people do in my post. I can be a right bastard if I know it'll get me ahead. Never anything terrible though, and never anything more than infinitely subtle. I mean, I'm still a nice guy, if I do say so myself.
Or maybe I'm just trying to manipulate you guys?
I’ll start with the question that I can most easily answer. I can honestly say that I don’t consider myself a mean person. For the exception of my sister, I don’t get mad easily. My sister pushes me to my limits, and the agitation never ends. Whenever I’m not near my sister (a school day, for example) I can be myself, and I can act how I want to act. I really don’t get mad at anyone. However, at home, around my sister, is when my “dark-side” shines through (see what I did there?). I’m even more stubborn than I usually am, and I just want to be left alone. On a different note, I can’t stand when people try and talk to me when I have headphones in my ears, with the music on. My mom gets mad at me if I don’t answer her, while I have my headphones in…it doesn’t make much sense to me.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Greene’s piece a couple times, long after the original assignment, I found myself disagreeing with one of his first few points. Greene writes something, “On the most obvious level, the person preaching vociferously against homosexuality is disguising their own longings.” In my own opinion, this says, for example, if I hate someone who’s gay, then, I must’ve had a past experience with a gay person that I didn’t like. (just a hypothetical scenario). In order for someone to absolutely HATE someone/thing, you have to have pretty strong feelings against that thing. For people who are against gay marriage, they, in all likelihood, have a strong feeling in the bible and believe what it has to say. I feel as if Greene writes that someone may have been pushed by a gay person, so they hate all gays. Maybe I’m just not understanding his comment, but, that’s how I took it. In response to what you had written in the blog question: The characters that we all see, fictionally, in most cases, strive for one thing. Power. The more that this “power” seems within reach, the more the character will do whatever it takes to achieve it.
Conversely, I thought Greene’s article was extremely well-written. I can easily see why he’s your favorite author. Stylistically, he’s phenomenal and his subtle hints at humor made the article much less boring and that much more exciting. Diction-ally,his word choice and sentence structure was solid.
ReplyDeleteAs for the “The Last Word” assignment, I was not a fan, to say the least. I had a tough time forming a reply to something I just didn’t have an emotional pull for. I hope we don’t do an assignment similar in Bunje English.
Bobby: I was going to mention the “yolo” thing but you beat me to it. All over Facebook and Twitter you see “yolo post dumb picture here”. I don’t see how it’s an excuse to party on a school night or do drugs on the weekend. Nice point.
Garret: I pretty much agree with what you said in reference to Greene. Almost that “I’m too good for you” sense. I would prefer you capitalize your “I”’s from now on though, thanks.
Dan-Hira: I want to thank you guys so much for posting the article on the lang page. Really helped me out considering I probably lost it the day that it was given out. What canya do?
I have this habit, I’m not sure whether it’s a good or a bad one, in which I relate nearly everything I read, novels included, back to my own life. When I read the Hunger Games, I imagined myself as Katniss Everdeen and wondered what it would be like to have to be in her situation – supporting a family single-handedly at the age of sixteen and being forced into an apocalyptic killing-spree – and reexamined my morals in the process. Like I said, I don’t know if that makes me a profound, active reader or if it simply means I’m self-centered and vain.
ReplyDeleteBut, that’s not what I’m trying to say. What I’m trying to get at is when I read The Dark Side, I immediately related Greene’s observations back to myself and the people who surround me. As I did that, I came to the realization that most everything he said makes sense and is completely applicable. I know that the use of definites like every, all, always, etc. but I feel as if here, saying that we ALL have a dark side is a perfectly reasonable claim because no one is perfect. No one is perfectly chipper all the time with perfectly decent thoughts who’s perfectly content with their life. It’s human nature to WANT to be happy, and yet always be the one thing that stands in the way of attaining said happiness. But, it’s our dark side that stands in the way. That’s why, I think, most people aren’t happy; we let the things about ourselves that we try to hide away stand in the way of our happiness.
I don’t understand though, how Greene can say that the things that people rally against, are really what people long for. Does that also apply vice versa so that the things that people support, are secretly things that they hate? I can wrap my head around reverse psychology and trying to throw people off course, but that can’t be a definite. It’s not like vegans who protest any consuming of animal byproducts, let alone the animals themselves, are secretly animal-hating meatpackers. This is simply illogical – the whole protesting against something to reveal a deeper motive may be applicable in some cases, such as that of the “straight” man saying homosexuality is a sin, when he secretly has the urge to explore his sexuality, but that can’t be the only tell of one’s dark side. It definitely makes sense to assume that one is presenting their sunny side to you, but what happens when one’s sunny side is darker than another’s dark side? How are we able to judge what this person’s TRUE dark side is? It all seems rather hit or miss, trying to peer into one’s dark side. I feel as if people show the sides of them they want to show simply because that’s who they want to be judged as, so we don’t have a right to be snooping around trying to exhume some elusive, unpredictable evil that lurks within them. One makes an effort to portray themselves as they want to be judged so, although that dark side is there, let’s keep it buried if it wants to stay buried.
Reading the article, I found I was immediately able to identify with what Greene was saying. Maybe regretfully, but able nonetheless. I find that I use my actions as a filter for who I really am. I can control how others perceive me, I cannot control who the real me is.
ReplyDeleteThis goes along with Greene's argument that we cover our weaknesses with something approximating the opposite. For example, I'm pretty insecure. Pretty being an understatement. I very rarely vocalize any insecurities, however, and instead try to only talk about positive things about myself in place. Of course, this lends itself to making me come across as conceited or self centered while the reality is much different.
This is just me though, and unfortunately, I don't believe the Beatle's thought that "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together" applies. I don't believe that every person must have a dark side. Unless you consider any unfavorable trait instant dark side material, in which case every side of every person can be considered dark by another.
I don't. A dark side is very much how Greene defines it, the part of a person they keep covered, but secretly want to let out. The part of them that they work away from but are inherently attracted to. And there are so people out there who lack this. There are people conscious of their traits and their wants and who they are. There are people who are content and simply exist. They lack the constant suppression and therefore the constant attraction.
As I believe I made clear earlier, I am not one of these people. I have a dark side. There are temptations that I resist, but would love to cater to. There are urges that I fight and truths I deny and hypocrisies I live by. As I also stated earlier, not everyone is me. Some of the people who stand out the most in my memories are the ones who were happy with their lives. These were the people who simply lived. They didn't "act" a certain way, there weren't any hidden aspects of themselves or their lives, they didn't feel the need to figure themselves out because they knew already. Most importantly, they indulged themselves in whatever they wanted. There was never a resistance, and I think it's the resistance that gives form to the Side That Shall Not Be Named (even though I've said it a hundred times thus far).
And maybe the actions these people partake in (sex, drugs, and rock and roll) others find unfavorable, but who are they to say it's "bad"? So here I am again, a living example of Greene's argument, because I do find myself drawn to these people. Contrary to Greene, I am not drawn to what these people are doing, but merely the fact that they're doing it.
So I have a dark side and you may have a dark side and my dark side could be purple and yours green and it wouldn't really matter because it's not the colors but the presence of pigmentation that is important. We will always appreciate the artist that indulges in whatever pallet he fancies, regardless of its ability to blend with our own.
That's a pretty nice metaphor you've got there at the end, and it speaks very well to what I was talking about, the admiration of those who cast off false moral codes. As long as a rule is broken, we like it. And maybe you were just using art as a metaphor, but it really does exist across all forms of art, the people we admire do things incorrectly. Picasso's paintings broke all conventional rules of construction; when Radiohead gets discordant, they defy conventional musical wisdom; when we use compositional risk, we break rules of language because art has to break rules. Real life is like art, its like Whose Line is it Anyway? where the rules are made up and the points don't matter.
DeleteReading through these comments, I find myself completely unashamed to say that I have absolutely no recollection of reading this story, nor did I ever go on to read anything else by this Robert Greene of whom you speak. In fact, the only book I’ve read in full since the beginning of the school year is Arthur C. Clarke’s 2001: A Space Odyssey, and even that tome, at a hefty and foreboding 260 pages, took me over six months to tread through. Meanwhile, all of my smart friends have been having loads of fun exploring multitudes of magical, fantastic realms while the closest I’ve ever come to spending some quality time with a book is when I spent 45 minutes reading about David Bowman and HAL in the Oakcrest bathroom while avoiding having to go to one of our insufferable pep rallies. I guess that’s what they call “sucking at life.”
ReplyDeleteAnyway, weren’t we supposed to be having some sort of moral discussion? In that case, count me the hell in!
Isn’t it obvious that we, as a culture, have developed some sort of attraction to villains as well as (or as opposed to) heroes? In recent years, in all kinds of media, we have witnessed the glamorization and – let’s face it – sexualization of particular sins and sinners (e.g. Heath Ledger’s Joker, Hannibal Lecter, Snooki, etc.) because we, as Mr. Greene puts it, find these subjects to be more interesting and – to a point – genuine than the status quo we’ve come to expect in our movies and TV shows and books. Take Batman, for example. Batman, Robin, the Joker, and co. have been around for decades upon decades, repeating the same good/evil antics ad nauseum and never truly evolving to fit the needs of a modern audience. God knows what disasters “Batman & Robin” and “Batman Forever” were. Then, there was The Dark Knight, and suddenly everyone’s eyes were on Heath Ledger’s sexy mania as opposed to Christian Bale’s slightly less sexy stoicism. Why, you ask? Because being the bad guy is fun! There’s nothing controversial about Greene’s standpoint; a villain’s job is to seduce people into thinking that being wrong is right – and modern manifestations of evil have certainly gotten that right.
Being evil is fun Nick! I kinda wish that I could one day play one of those sexy bad guy roles. I guess that being bad isn't too bad, afterall without it is there really any "good" something needs to be dark to create light.
DeleteThe concept that Greene has established within his blog is what I agree in. People do not necessarily have a “bad side” they just have a “dark side.” I mean, why would anyone disagree with this statement. All it is pretty much saying is that there is a side of you that you are trying to forget, and so you subconsciously choose to forget it.
ReplyDeleteExample one to help support this concept. Domestic violence. No, this didn’t come to me just because of last night’s episode of glee. I genuinely thought of this right away. When a woman (or a man if they’re in an abusive relationship) is getting beaten by their spouse, then there is a definite side to themselves that they don’t like. They don’t like the pain and the rejection with each individual slap. They don’t like the long days of not knowing what will happen to them that night when their spouse gets home. Heck, they don’t like the bet that they have to have every night on whether their spouse will come home drunk.
Now, this is a completely serious blog, no funny business or anything, so I will be brutally honest. I know a couple of housewives who were abused by their husbands. They were abused mentally (which is sometimes the worst kind of abuse) and physically. The worst aspect of this abuse was their inability to break away from it. I’ve seen grown women who acted as my second mom stuck in the relationship for over 10 years. I’m sorry, but if I was getting regularly beaten by someone for 10 years, I would not stay around and wait for the next hit. I would be out the door with all of my stuff. Then again, I’m also the son of a mother who is extremely thick-skinned. My mom is the type of “independent woman that don’t need no man” who has a husband.
My mom has helped out a few of these women that I’ve known throughout my life. She’s helped unlock the shackles that keep them up all night. That’s one of the reasons why a few of them have grown so close to me. I’ve grown up with their kids, who I sometimes wonder whether they were abused the same way. I’m sure they were, but they never liked to tell anyone. Which becomes a problem in it of itself. Now, these kids, who were a couple of kids that I’ve known for an extremely long amount of time, never see their dad. He only comes back around when looking for something. He may be looking for money, a place to crash for the night, or another “chance” with his ex-wife. I don’t know which. What I do know is that the kids and the mom all give him the cold should, rightfully so. They push him out of their memories and have created memories with a new father figure. He is their dark side.
I know that one day I will have a dark side. For right now though, I can deal with not having a a huge dark spot in my life. I’ve been told that I’m optimistic in this class and by people outside of class. Maybe because it’s true. After all, I do roam around the house and sing all day. And there is no down side to that. My biggest trouble that I try to hide is my huge athletic inability. I just, for whatever reason, am not that big of an athlete *cough cough because I don’t do sports cough cough* But one that is more relatable to me and that I know exists because I accept it is that I’m not much of a singer. I’ve been able to push that concept away, learning to “act” like I can sing and by playing my stronger cards this year of acting and dancing. SO yeah.
Rachel: Yes, we all are humans and we all have emotions and traits and feelings yes, it's hard to confine us with rules and regulations to try to manipulate us into what other people want; just like it's hard to fight off our dark sides. They're apart of us and if we chose to keep it concealed, then so be it. But if one chooses to let it take over, they can't be criticized for their lack of strength. Maybe one of their traits is weakness. If we can't put rules on human beings for manipulation, why can we tell them that they must keep their dark side hidden?
ReplyDeleteSchuyler: You're so morbid. But, at least you speak your mind. I lovez da metaphor of the dark side and the werewolf/beast. Clever, young Padawan. Clever.
Hira: I think that one's dark side is so, SO much more than just a rule-breaker. It's that part of you that wants to grab someone by the ankles and whip them around like a jump rope, bashing their head into the lockers at school. It's that part of you that contains all your bottled up jealousy and nearly uncontrollable rage. It's the part of you that you suppress because that's the part of a person when, if it begins to consume someone, is when they're written off as insane. It's far more than just the rebellious thing that Greene had mentioned.
Well Hira, if you're not friends with the rule breakers then how else would you learn right from wrong? Just don't get into too much trouble hahaha.
ReplyDeleteDan-
ReplyDeleteIt's not at all unusual to imagine oneself and others as "shells" covering up what they truly contain inside. In fact, it'd be crazy to assume that everyone is as upfront as they say they are. It is true, however, that cracks form now and again, slowly revealing our inner truths for the world to see. Dan, you show none of these cracks. You're pretty damn normal, as far as I'm concerned.
Ashley-
Lying? Cheating? What a pansy! You haven't seen what "bad" high school students are capable of until you've lived it. It's a hell of a life. Also, you seem to imply that you have quite the affinity for "bad boys." Have I ever told you about my double life? Let's just say that someone should tell Dominique that it takes more than a baseball to take me down. Wait, are you in our class? If not you may not get that reference. Whatever; you're not reading this anyway.
Schuyler-
It's the twelfth hour, and quite literally at that. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to convey with your monologue, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that it's similar to everyone else's. Insert facetious comment here, insert sarcastic insult here, and ... in by 11:59.
Amber: Your example of Hannibal, I feel, is completely perfect and relevant. Also, I find that admiration for him is more acceptable than most other villains.
ReplyDeleteCole: I'm glad you don't think you have a dark side, because you were one of the people I thought of who I couldn't imagine having a dark side (as defined in my blog and by Greene). Maybe it's because you have such a light complexion. Dye your hair or some shiznit. And you are a pimp.
Matt: In saying that the dark side represents what society has repressed, isn't that implying that everyone's dark side would be the same? I find that a difficult notion to grasp.
I wouldn't say that everyone's dark side is the same per say. However, I believe that we share certain characteristics in our dark sides.
DeleteSo it's pretty late, but the power was out and I've finally summoned the wherewithal to write this blog. Quite simply, Greene is right except for one fine distinction, that the will to do the “wrong” thing is an inherent human quality. I disagree, I feel that the will to do the wrong thing is the existence of social norms, law systems and moral codes that create artificial right and wrong. These things confuse the issue, because moral compasses are something I believe every human is born with, the tools necessary to sustain sociable life in a group setting are things humanity evolved into. So when religions, governments and other sources of authority write moral codes, the concept of right and wrong because subconsciously confused.
ReplyDeleteWhat this implies about a “dark side” is NOT that a dark side would be a learned part of a person, because desires that would break even the evolutionary code of morality exist in all humans. Our hormones and brains don't always act the way they should. However, wanting to actually follow through on this desire is a learned behavior, and therefore the more twisted forms of desire that create serial killers and rapists are learned behaviors, taught by a youth filled with repression of desires. At their most basic level, these more twisted desires reflect severe moral confusion, and the will to follow them through is the will to destroy this moral confusion in the most spectacular way possible. How do we know this? Because serial killers are showoffs, they leave patterns and signs when they kill. They want to display their destruction of moral confusion to the world at large, their desire for “chaos,” is something they love to share when they murder.
Of course, the existence of moral confusion in all humans does not lead to a world full of serial killers, but it does explain why we are willing to glorify them. Greene said that it was because they are more genuine than we are, I say it is because they “cure” their own moral confusion. This is something we inherently desire, humanity wants to throw off the chains it has made for itself, and serial killers, pimps, etc. do just that; only these men break through these chains in a far more extreme fashion than usual. The very existence of written and implied moral codes would need to end for such men and women to vanish from the world, and until this happens humanity will continue to secretly adore these extremist rebels.
My own dark side is not so complicated really, not exactly serial killer material. I want things I can't have and that creates some weird emotions sometimes, but nothing beyond my ability to cope. I also get strange satisfaction out of handing work in at the last possible moment, but I don't think that's uncommon enough to even count as a dark side. Especially considering I do nothing to repress it.
When I was first rereading “The Dark Side” piece, I was almost insulted by the generalizations. Though bounded by logic, I’d think to myself “well this isn’t ALWAYS true…”, “this can’t ALWAYS be right.” Upon further speculation, however, it was the realization of my own rebuttal that kind of highlighted the truth in it. I believe that we all work to conceal different parts of us, not necessarily the negative parts, but those that make us appear weak, vulnerable, strange, etc… The only branch of Greene’s argument that I held in question was how you locate these traits, and his philosophy of how they peek from the darkness. I doubt that everyone “vociferously against homosexuality” is “disguising their own longings.” In reality, there are people who simply have deep convictions, and the firm ties to their beliefs only solidify the kind of “strong-willed” personality that they have. I know that I’m looking too deeply and too literally into his words, but I started here when considering his points.
ReplyDeleteI cannot agree more that in most people exists some amount of longing to “do wrong”, break the rules, etc. There’s something exciting about danger. The extent that people agree with that notion differs in everyone; hence people who do very wrong things all the time and people who do semi-wrong things on rare occasion. The average person tends to curb this mentality, to avoid judgment. And this is the focal point of Greene’s argument, in my opinion. The person who hide’s their desire to go egg someone’s house (for example) instead of going to see a movie, is considered less “genuine” then the person who vocalizes their true wishes to do something wrong and dangerous regardless of what other people may think or say in response. But perhaps that ability to speak without true consideration is, in itself, another quality of one’s persona. And furthermore…what is “speaking freely” but the act of speaking without considering what judgments might fall on your shoulders in result. I for one am not proud to be among a society that puts blame on a free thinker.
I kind of sort of maybe most definitely have a dark side. And the world may never know about it :o! I have a strange affinity towards danger. I think it comes from somewhere deep down in which I secretly want to rebel against everything my mother wants me to be (I love her, don’t get me wrong). I don’t like to live between the lines; I don’t want to do what everyone else does. As I got older, I started to oppress that part of me more, simply because of the judgment issue. And I think it’s a similar case for anyone who ever wanted to act as they are but was criticized to the bone for it. Maybe that’s why we suppress different parts of ourselves, because we fear that the world won’t accept us for who we are.
Becca - I completely get the confusion you have over the point Greene makes about people secretly wanting what their fighting against. His like reverse backwards paradoxical reasoning only makes sense when you consider his point as a whole. And part of what he was trying to say is that the more you try to suppress your dark side, the more your character will bring it out.
ReplyDeleteBobby - i don't think i've ever met "Douchebag Bobby" but this "dark side" that your describing, really only sounds like you on a bad day. Which doesn't necessarily constitute a "dark side"!
Janel - At the end of your blog you were discussing the reversal of one's inner desires based on their positions in life or whatever. Agreed 100%! I guess we can't completely locate or understand everyone's "Dark side" (existent or nonexistent) until we understand who they are to begin with. I know of girls in our grade who have extremely obsessive, conservative, strict parents, and I used to think that they'd grow up to be so screwed up. But from what I can tell (keywords: what i can tell), they seem normal! Who Knows!